Sigh.
Of course it’s not a bad team. All of the options would win the team final at worlds, and so will this one. It’s fine. But…
The all-around standings, you guys.
Like Gigapets and baggy windbreakers, some things were better left in 1996.
The US women’s worlds team exactly mimics the all-around standings from yesterday’s selection camp (so why did they even have an extra day of events—or a national team coordinator?), with the team named as Simone Biles, Sunisa Lee, Kara Eaker, MyKayla Skinner, Jade Carey, and Grace McCallum.
An alternate has not yet been announced, but if we’re really going by all-around standings, one would presume McCallum is the alternate for the time being. She would also be my alternate on this particular team of 6.
This is basically a case study in why I have such a problem with using the all-around standings from a single competition—or using a single competition at all—because while this team was indeed the highest-scoring possible team based on yesterday’s selection camp scores (so good for you for that, we’ll take it), that was a super weird meet—an outlier—unlikely to be repeated at worlds. That group of 5 ended up being the highest-scoring team solely because some key people sucked on bars. If your goal is to select the team you expect to score the highest at worlds, this ain’t it.
We had the same problem with junior worlds, where Konnor McClain was not on the team because she fell on beam at trials, even though she pretty clearly would have been on the best possible squad. Tom Forster has said her prefers to use the all-around, and this appears to be no different. It’s similar to the Japanese team not selecting Mai because she was unavailable for a critical meet. Putting too much weight on that competition (it’s wayyyyyy worse with Japan because that meet was so early) inhibited your ability to select the actual best possible team.
That’s why basing the team on one competition instead of using an overall impression of the many meets this summer on which to base a decision is a lazy abdication of responsibility.
Adding here that we don’t know what happened on day 2, and because we don’t know what happened on day 2, we can’t make arguments based on it. Maybe let us know what happened on day 2, because say, if Hurd had another rough one on bars, you can start to justify this insanity a little bit more…
For example, if you were to take the average scores from the national championship, the team as selected (assuming McCallum as alternate because of AA standings) would score 1.425 lower than the highest-scoring team from that meet.
Using the system that was used to select the men’s team—which I quite like in general—the women’s team that was selected would have been the 4th-highest scoring team option—so not wholly terrible, but definitely not your highest-scoring team by a clear margin.
So what if worlds qualification ends up more like the two days of nationals than like selection camp? You’ve just cost yourself a fall and a half. Sure, the US is still ahead of every other country by a lot— and I do believe that in an ideal system recent results should be given more weight than older results like Classic—but taking all of the meets into account gives you a much better representation of what might happen at worlds than choosing a single competition on which to base the decision.
WON’T SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE SPREADSHEETS?!?!
It also sucks to be a member of the highest-scoring teams using more…logical?…methods, knowing that you earned a spot on the worlds team based on your scores this year, and then not be selected because of a shallow and inaccurate impression of fairness entertained by a selection committee that is…too scared to select the team members that earned those spots based on their scores this year?
So, with that rant out of the way, let’s talk about the actual team, what routines people will compete, and why there are some holes in this group.
Here’s where I see the lineups for this team (once again, assuming McCallum is your alternate for now):
VAULT – (Lee) Skinner, Carey, Biles
This is a high-scoring vault team. No arguments there, except for that you’ve overloaded vault unnecessarily, which brings us to…
BARS – (Skinner) Eaker, Biles, Lee
So yeah, you have Kara Eaker doing bars in a team final for some reason, and Skinner going in qualification (could be Carey in qualification too). You’ve picked up some tenths on vault by adding Skinner in there, but on balance, you’ve lost more than that by not having Hurd’s bars routine. You’re underwater by about 3-4 tenths with that trade given the scores from this summer’s meets.
And if someone gets hurt, you have no safety net at all here.
BEAM – (Skinner) Lee, Biles, Eaker
Killer beam team…as long as those exact three gymnasts go. Otherwise, it’s a disaster.
The one thing I will say that I like about the named team is that it’s not over-concerned about having good qualification scores and safe backups—being so worried about the 4th-best routine across all four events is something I’ve criticized about past teams—but we may be going too far the other direction here.
FLOOR – (Skinner) Lee, Carey, Biles
Here’s where I think you best see the problems with this team, even though this floor team is excellent. It’s…too loaded? Floor is one of Skinner’s things, it’s her event, but she’s pretty clearly the 4th-best floor score on this team going by what we’ve seen this year. So, you’re bringing a floor worker who isn’t even going to do floor in team final? That seems…dumb?
Basically, the US can get away with selecting a team through such methods because it is so much better than every other country, but if that dynamic changes, this would be a real problem. Because this is not the best possible team.
Another key issue here: If you’re just using the results of the all-around at selection camp, it’s not an approach I agree with, but it’s a thing. You can do that. People do. But, if you decide that’s what you’re going to do, then that needs to be written into the selection procedures. And that is absolutely not what the selection procedures currently say. They instruct the committee to use a whole bunch of competitions like Classic and nationals to decide the team, and if you were doing that, you would never have come up with this particular team.
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The way I’m so sad that Morgan didn’t make the team….. :(((
The producers on the All Around show on Olympic Channel def got the drama they were probs waiting for, but…damn.
That floor looked cursed on the right corner.
So many girls fell or “tripped” at the exact spot.
Something wasn’t right…
Congrats to these girls, tho!
I don’t think Skinner should have been selected ahead of Wong/Hurd. She’s only going for vault- you could use her on floor but as Spencer points out there are others that score higher. I think the US needs more of a bars/beam worker than a 1 eventer on an already strong event for the team.
I would much prefer to watch Skinner on floor than Carey. Both have the tumbling but Skinner is fearless which makes her routines more fun, while Carey is rigid and boring and looks like she’s terrified of getting injured – this makes her “dance” skill unwatchable.
Vault, Floor and potentially Beam (it is BEAM) have the potential to have monster scores with this team if everyone is healthy and Grace is the alternate (she checks all the boxes as the perfect alternate since she decent on all events, not the best scoring option but can easily fill in for useable scores).
If the team scores to its potential on three events then deciding they’re OK with counting one lower bars score works out. The key is the US needs Biles and Lee to hit clean bars routines.
Can we talk about how awesome Skinner is for actually getting back into the elite shape in less than six months – who does she think she is Simone Biles? I have never been a Skinner fan but I have to admit I am cheering for her to do well at Worlds and to make the Olympic team in 2020. Curious to know if Skinner would go pro thereby forfeiting her final year of NCAA eligibility or if she’ll go back to Utah with her eligibility intact.
What are the odds of Riley and Morgan refocusing their aspirations from elite to NCAA and going to Florida in January? Assuming Riley’s illness really is just mild and she’ll be OK in three months.
Great article Spencer. See I think that Skinner is the alternate. I think Grace fits in this team pretty cleanly. Morgan must have had another fall.
“Can we talk about how awesome Skinner is for actually getting back into the elite shape in less than six months – who does she think she is Simone Biles?”
People have been talking about that INCESSANTLY all summer so no I think we’re good.
Also, coming back from NCAA to elite is not anywhere close to coming back from not training due to taking an actual year off or having an injury. It’s impressive but Skinner doesn’t deserve a knighthood for it.
Well, at least the FX OOB technician from the selection camp found another job:
https://i.postimg.cc/FHXPdRcG/Lines.jpg
AHAHAHHAHAHA
I can’t even handle this. Who is our third all arounder? Skinner or Carey? What if someone gets hurt a la Smith 2017? What is gained by having both of them? Seems really unnecessary.
I think we go with 2 AAers. There is no guaranteed 2nd AA medal in the case of a Smith 2017 situation. Instead there’s a guaranteed 2nd VT medal. If all medals are worth the same it’s not a crazy approach.
That’s not entirely unreasonable but I think most people value a second AA medal over a vault one. I get that all medals have value I just find it unlikely we would actually go with only 2 AAs
Simone, Suni and Kara, all likely individual EF medalists too. Kara hit 57 at Classic and 57.1 here too. Grace only beat that once this season, no one else.
You also have Skinner doing all-around over Eaker, which is hugely concerning.
Or you have 2 AAers in quals. We really do have 2 that have separated themselves from the pack. This seems reasonable to me.
Please God no…. bad enough we have to watch both her and Carey “dance” … I am missing the benefit to having 2 gymnasts with the exact same strengths (great vaults and tumbling) and deficiencies (robotic dancing and horrible form)…
This method means that Skinner will likely be in AA over Eaker. Lord help us.
I feel so justified in not understanding why Skinner is even in this conversation let alone on the team.
Because she has a 6.0 D score on the most important event in WAG.
Yeah, having Carey, Skinner, and Mcallum all on the same team doesn’t work logistically. The only reason this is happening is because the US is gonna win regardless. But they’re screwed if someone like Eaker gets injured.
Also, I’m super sad for Morgan, but this may be the best thing for her. She’s going to be on fire in 2020.
If AA standing were truly the only thing taken into consideration, then Faith Torrez was one beam fall away from making the team. As awesome as Faith is, there’s no chance she would have been put on the team, right?? Right????
The only thing that makes me think there was any discussion beyond the selection camp AA standings is that she wasn’t one of the traveling alternates despite placing 7th.
She doesn’t have an FIG license is what I have been seeing people say
The FIG license can be applied online within minutes.
Won’t let me reply to piibunina but FIG rules I have seen say you need to apply at least a month before the event unless I am misunderstanding them
Then why bring her to selection?
In response to the question “why bring Torrez to selection?”…do you really need to wonder. Tom Forster has shown that he is not very bright.
Emily Lee doesn’t have one either.
In response to why bring Faith and Emily: why bring Rachel Gowey and Amelia Hundley to 2016 Olympic Trials? Making the selection meet is itself a huge accomplishment. Case in point: Aleah came and competed only a couple weeks after losing her dad and probably dealing with missing tons of training time/mental game issues. It’s a big deal to get to go at all, and Faith and Emily performed well enough to merit it. What’s the problem with having a couple extra routines if it can mean the world to the gymnasts in question?
One would assume it’s a reward for Torrez’s good performance over the regular season, and a chance to experience the higher pressure of the verification/trial camps in case she makes more of a run for international assignments next year.
Yay Tom Forster because as far as I’m aware the gymnasts like him more and are safer but he really is not good at his job beyond that. This is the wrong team. Morgan should be on the team over Mykayla or even just alternate over Grace if he can’t bear to part with Skinner. I nominate Spencer to be the next national team coordinator!
yes I do wanna stress that too!! we can send lots of angry tweets about why we don’t like this particular team selection, but if Tom is fostering respect for athletes and their safety, he is already about a galaxy better than Marta.
McKayla earned her spot over Morgan. Period.
I agree. Jade and MyKayla are so similar except I think MyKayla will score better internationally. Jade has amazing difficulty but it’s like watching a robot. This will be a real test for Skinner. As much as I hate to say it she is usable on beam but pray that we won’t need to call on her. Anyway you look at it, she gets the “gutsy determination “ award. No one thought she could do it but she is made of shear grit. I truly hope she crushes it.
I’m in shock.
There’s no combination of taking high scores or McClure-ing that would take Skinner over both Morgan and Leanne other that relying solely on yesterday’s scores or AA, right?
If they have to release a justification document, it’s going to be insane. Like…”we considered this 1 criterion…all of the others (averages, high over the season, history of medals) yield different teams…but we’re going to stick to this one because….?
Skinner had a hell of a day, but Morgan and Leanne have a lot of reason to be pissed. I honestly hope they are bold enough to raise hell behind the scenes (too classy to show they publicly like Skinner) so that Tom learns that AA rankings is not a “controversy free” selection method.
Damn, he’s actually so lucky that things were weird enough that Jade made top 6 AA.
Also, this eerily mirrors the 2016 selection situation, but not learning from the one thing Marta did right.
I think it will be fun to see this team completely dominate on vault and and be pretty darned good at beam and floor and good enough on bars. The world will be pissing their leos trying to keep up with us on vault
They should hve left carey home 🏡 not Hurd or wong. If these 2 didn’t fall they would have beat jade. Definitely Hurd would have made it since is AA. I don’t get this guarantee silver for Jade. Suni can get silver on floor and ms can get it on vault. I hope she is the alt with that ugly floor. Tumble tumble walk walk walk finish pose long arms tumble. That’s a disgrace on the world stage.
Well she did quite well on floor at the World Cups she attended on the world stage.
Carey should absolutely be on this team. It’s Skinner that doesn’t make any sense. Like, she isn’t going to score nearly as high as she has domestically, at worlds.
Skinner has always done better internationally than she has domestically. Vault E scores are all the same.
But Carey outscored Skinner on both vault and floor. It would make even less sense to leave her at home while taking Mykayla.
Yeah, i think i am a little concerned we gone over the other side a little too much too. I do wonder what happen in day 2.
I say Kara over Skinner on floor in prelims. Kara beat Skinner on floor at camp and beat her in the AA at camp and if we are doing RANK ORDER, Kara deserves to go on floor. And yeah, maybe that means we only have two AAers. Which is also dumb.
Somehow McCallum needs to get bumped up from alternate. I will say, it happened last year with Eaker finishing 6th at camp but competing over Smith.
Not gonna happen unless Grace learns an Amanar in the next week or two.
All the AA talk exposes another problem that should be obvious…
If the AA is so important, then logically Kara, who is obviously and consistently better in AA than Skinner, should be the 3rd AAer over her, but that would shut Skinner or Jade out of vault.
If Skinner gets the AA shot in reward for her 4th place finish, that contradicts the previous logic of what he values.
…The obvious answer is that teams should be selected with freaking lineups in mind!
What is so hard to understand about the fact that internationally taking a 6.0 vault over a 5.4 vault is a much surer thing than hoping Morgan hits bars over Kara.
Morgan’s UB routine yesterday is the only one where she’s fallen this year. Yes she’s had a rough year in some ways and given her performance yesterday I’m not up in arms over her not being chosen. But I honestly think the anti-Hurds are overblowing her inconsistency.
Your argument about vault D scores is valid. But the general pattern of Morgan on bars this year isn’t that you’d have to be crossing your fingers that she hits over Kara.
What if we assume MyKayla will be the alternate? Then we have exactly the MCCLURE team (Simone, Jade, Grace, Suni, Kara) from your preview. So, perhaps this reflects the selection committee’s knowledge of spreadsheet stuff, and the US Women’s dominance, and wanting to reward MyKayla for her hard work/performance at Trials. Now, is there a case to be made for having MyKayla as the alternate just in case Jade or Simone were injured, or would another gymnast stepping into TF in one of their spots be more valuable statistically?
Ughhhh. I can’t.
My guess is Skinner or Carey is the alternate.
VT: Simone, Jade/Myk, Sunisa (Grace)
UB: Simone, Sunisa, Grace, (Kara)
BB: Simone, Sunisa, Kara (Grace)
FX: Simone, Sunisa, Jade/Myk, (Grace)
3 AA, one Floor/Vt specialist and Kara is a de facto UB/BB specialist. Despite yesterday, Grace has proven to be a pretty consistent AA -er and maybe she had an Amanar today? HOW WOULD WE KNOW?
This only relying on one meet selection is pretty terrible. Wasn’t a big criticism of Marta- one fall and you are done forever. I don’t know how this is any different. One fall, at an in-gym meet with a weird floor and you are out. Or in. I think that is probably equally harmful to the athletes.
Also, I feel the Jade Carey situation is increasingly unfair. More gymnasts should have the opportunity to go the World Cup route. And if we are limiting to basically only her then I think she shouldn’t also get to try and go to the team competitions. The fair way to resolve it is to open it up to more gymnasts.
The World Cup route is open to any person on the national team who fits the criteria…. The only person who fits that criteria and is going for it is Jade. There is plausibly no one in the United States who isn’t going for a team spot that would have a shot at winning the series anyways based off the fact the US only pays for three world cups, the bare minimum to place in the final standings. Nothing about Jade’s situation is “unfair”
Does Myk fit the criteria now that she’s made a world team?
Making a criteria where only a single person can fulfill it is unfair. There are other individuals who could potentially compete for a spot. But the gave their eligibility by contributing to the team score last year. Which she choose not to do. Or they were juniors. Several US gymnasts would be competing at the world cups.
Ah, just double checked the criteria. If MyKayla earns an individual medal at worlds, she’ll make herself eligible for the world cup route 🙂
This honestly makes me wonder whether that will play into the alternate decision. The only two on this team besides Carey who are eligible to go this route are Skinner and Lee. Of the two, I think only Skinner would try it if given the option. Will Tom bench Skinner to ensure that she doesn’t medal and therefore isn’t eligible?
It would be wise if him to bench Carey so Skinner can go this route. That way she can get second in vault so if Tom wants to take Carey there’s no downside because US would still get the vault apparatus spot.
Except they’d be sending a nominative specialist for an event she would likely be two-per-country’d out of. Either they find some way to forfeit the nominative spot and get the non-nominative ones instead, or Jade’s going in the nominative spot and not on the team. Sending Mykayla to the cups only makes sense to have an “alternate” to Jade so that if she gets injured the second in line is an American.
With 4 up 4 count in 2020, don’t think it makes sense for Jade to be on the team anyway. With another year of training under her belt, I think MyKayla absolutely has a strong shot at being one of the all arounders to make the team.
I meant with everyone having to compete all around ^^^
I know this may be controversial, but I would have left Carey off and put Wong (maybe Hurd) in her spot. Carey is going to Tokyo as an individual no matter what. Why not use Worlds as an opportunity for gymnasts who haven’t had a ton of international experience to see how they do under pressure?
I also think Hurd has looked off all year. I don’t know if it’s injury, mental fatigue, or just being off in competition, but she is not the same athlete as she was in 2017 or 2018.
Agree with the Carey statement.
All I have to say through all this arguing is why even have a World Selection Camp if everyone is going to tell them to look at the bigger picture. These are the gymnasts who performed the best at the camp and therefore were selected. Could Morgan or Leanne fit into this team perfectly fine? Absolutely, but when you have a WORLD TEAM SELECTION CAMP the pressure is really on, and clearly it got to them. If you think going by rank order isn’t fair or doesn’t make sense than try justifying anyone else while not completely ignoring what happened at the camp.
People still see the value in having the selection camp, but what people take issue with is considering ONLY camp, when there are so many other things to consider. other past meets, scoring potential, etc. Using one data point to decide the team just seems illogical to me and many others.
One Data point is a problem. Also if camp is “the moment” then it needs to be on a podium with the right equipment.” A single in-gym meet doesn’t seem like the best predictor.
I don’t think people have a problem with Myk using the opportunity to surge. That is what camp if for. To show an upward trajectory. But the other side of the coin isn’t a mistake at camp means we burn it all down. Because… single in-gym meet with mushy floor and kids sitting right next to the floor and weird pacing.
I’ll justify Leanne based on yesterday. Simone, Sunisa, Jade, and Kara sealed their cases. That leaves a bars hole. Leanne put up a good lead off bars routine yesterday. She also put up a good potential lead off beam if you don’t want to have Sunisa do AA three times. Her history brings the potential for a lead off DTY, but if you focus on her fall yesterday, that’s not a critical hole you need filled. She had a rough AA outing, but she did make a decent case for a lead off UB/BB gymnasts as a compliment to Jade in addition to her case based on her competitive history.
Okay so here is my thinking. I don’t actually have a problem with teams (not just the US) picking athletes to maximize vault and bars scores: as we’ve seen this quad (and in others), these are the highest-scoring events internationally, and it is more than possible to rake in big scores with hit routines. So loading up on vault is fine in my eyes. The US is in a position to post three Chengs in the TF, for a 1.8 difficulty advantage alone over a team posting three DTYS.
But BARS is another issue entirely. Second-highest-scoring event internationally, per Lauren’s meticulous data. Simone is good, but not infallible (see yesterday). Suni is excellent but also not infallible, and no matter how consistent she is that routine is always going to be a huge risk. Kara is good and has the nice GAGE polish, but it is far from her strength. I think this is a major oversight, and that makes it worth maybe swapping one of those Chengs for a Leanne or a Morgan (or even a Grace) bar routine.
I’m not a Ute Red Rocks fan, but hats off to MyKayla Skinner for what she has accomplished in a brief time in her return to the elite world of gymnastics. She is extremely reliable at NCAA meets and is working hard to be so for Team USA.
This team is SUPER unbalanced. Like yes, the U.S. will win team gold anyway because the field is that deep, but you have Simone AND Jade AND Mykayla, all who are top vault and floor workers, and Grace is generally great there too. Then for bars you have to put someone on bars in the team final who isn’t great at bars, because basically Simone and Suni are the only great bars workers you have. Beam is pretty solid though. We don’t know what happened day 2 of camp, but still if I were Leanne or Morgan, I would be pissed.
Team is only unbalanced on bars really with one possible low score… but two good ones if they hit. The rest its stacked. So unbalanced where else? Stop. You Hurd fans are starting to make me hate her! On twitter you guys are pigs!
Also, really, you add scores where you can get them. If adding a third big vault unbalances the team but still adds 0.5-1.0 more than another bars gymnast would, do you go for balance or higher scoring potential? It’s weird but works.
^^^^ I agree here.
Yes, the team might be unbalanced, but is that inherently bad? Should perfect balance across four events be the goal? Or should the goal be to maximize the score? Putting up 3 gymnasts who are gold medal capable is a unique and gutsy move. We’ll learn if that was a good decision soon enough.
Skinner hasn’t even gotten anywhere into the top 3 FX workers this season. She was 5th at Nationals and she was 5th again at World Camp.
Nationals: Biles, Carey, Lee, McCallum, Skinner
World Trials: Biles, Lee, Eaker, Carey, Skinner
Everyone else on the team has ranked above her on FX this season.
Some of you guys are just awful. It’s like you forget there are actual human beings behind the names your constantly bashing in your comments. I hope to god none of them actually read this crap.
Right? It’s not the gymnasts’ fault. It’s Tom Forster’s for putting together a bonkers team combo.
He chose the right team. Vault is absolutely the most important event in WAG followed by floor. Guaranteed points for difficulty especially vault.
YES!!!! We all knew the team selection would leave gymnasts who deserves to be on the team behind. Plus with everything happening at usag the least us fans can do is support these gymnasts, Whether they made the team or not.
Yes, and what does “deserving” to make a team even look like when any combination of Simone plus four is guaranteed gold?
Hit when it counts! Skinner hits, Morgan did not. End of story. Don’t rely on “I am just going to peak at Worlds, believe me Tom”. Many have questioned Morgan being included in the team last 2017 and claimed it unfair because she was super inconsistent. Now they want her on the team despite her inconsistencies all year round.
Amen! How many times is that gonna be their motto! She did it last year! Bad camp, literally bad in podium training, falling, but pulled through and made finals. Cannot rely on that forever! But her 1 bar score… lol sure.
I feel like you either need to be super consistent and reliable/able to hit when it counts *or* your hits have to be medal worthy. Neither of those is true for Morgan right now – she’s had a lot of misses and her hits would still be 2 per’ed in most cases. This year, Riley and Kara haven’t been more consistent but their hits are medal level hits. Skinner has both this year.
That’s how I see it, anyway. No idea if that’s how Tom sees it at all. Probably not.
I don’t necessarily agree that you need to be medal level. I think going for logical lineups also makes sense. For the sake of what actually happened yesterday, let’s move the discussion from Morgan to Leanne since she hit bars. Skinner’s closer to medal level, but she’s likely also to be two-per-country’d. Leanne brings a UB routine that fills the holes better and a potential lead off routine on two other events, and the lineups make more general sense with her on the team (particularly who does AA in qualification.)
I agree with you. Morgan’s bars potential is not a medal worthy routine. If she had been added to the team, it would have been unfair to those who scored above her at the camp and who do have medal,worthy routines. I give Tom Forster and the selection committee props for not just following status quo and putting gymnasts on the Worlds team just because they were on the team last year. Also for not worrying about whether the best possible bars line-up is met. I always find it frustrating when gymnasts who score higher are overlooked for the team just because they do not fit the puzzle – kind of like Skinner in 2016. This year, no one was skipped for puzzle fit purposes.
Anon at 6:54: Counterpoint–Mykayla might have medal-worthy routines, but on the same team as Simone and Jade, she probably won’t even make any individual finals. Given that, realistically, she doesn’t actually bring any additional medal potential to the team. So why choose to bring her and not a gymnast who fills the bars hole better and puts the team in a less precarious position in case of injury?
Really? The team is completely fine without Morgans Bar scores! Yall are trippin! Counting one score in the 13’s but Simone and Lee when hit are in the high 14’s. Vault is stacked, floor is stacked, BEAM is stacked. Wtf! Justifying Morgan finishing 9th, and looking rough all fucking quad, on everything, and when it matters she isnt hitting, but that should all be a wash because she can add a bars score? really? Who are you?
Um, I don’t know if you’ve been paying attention, but Morgan has been killing it when it counts this quad until now. She was world champ in 2017 when everyone thought Ragan Smith was the new shiny gymnast. She returned to the AA podium in 2018 despite a subpar performance at camps. And she has 5 world medals in just 2 years.
Sorry didnt mean this quad… I MEANT this season. My bad. Point remains!
Please remember that it was a severely depleated field post olympics. She did well but a fair number of heavy hitters were absent
Team USA saw Japan’s world selection procedures and decided that would be fun to try! It’s like a competition for most incompetent
😂😂😂😂😂🤣
They chose the right team. Morgan fans need to calm down.
The only people I see yelling are the Morgan haters? I certainly see some people who feel Hurd should’ve been on the team but the really rude comments are coming from people who are happy with this team. Speaking of which, maybe you could all cool it since no one likes a sore winner. You got your team, it’s a USAG-approved I Told You So – no need to drone on about Morgan like she personally punched you in the face just bc she has annoying fans on twitter.
LMAO! This is actually the complete opposite in terms of Japan’s selection procedure so the irony is real in that comment
So sad about Morgan! Also it is such a shame that Kara won’t get a chance to compete all around here. She earned that opportunity! However so happy for the girls that made the team! If this team selection was hard I can’t even imagine how the selection for Tokyo is going to go…
Wait who and what said Kara wont compete AA here?
It’s just an assumption based on the assumption that Grace is the alternate. With the three vault specialists, that leaves one other vault spot in qualification, and Sunisa is the number 2 AA.
There is no alternate named. That will be decided after podium training. This wouldn’t be the first time that Skinner made Worlds and was relegated to alternate after podium training. IE- 2015 Worlds.
I love that everyone thinks that the selection is so sad for Morgan and others buy o one was so sad after MyKayla was 4th in 2016 and was left off even though she would have been effective on the team. Things happen. I for one hope she has the meet of her life. What she has accomplished is nothing short of incredible
If you’re one of those people who still doesn’t understand why Skinner didn’t belong on the 2016 team, then you should be able to understand reason-free, emotion-full responses just fine.
This is definitely an unbiased post and not in any way related to having a relationship with a gymnast who has come on your podcast multiple times and for who you provide commentary on for a TV series.
Lol so true. I mean plus the math is wrong. Skinner’s vault is worth more than Morgan’s bars.
I’m pretty sure Spencer would have happily accepted that Olympic Channel gig regardless of who the featured gymnast was. The gymternet has a pro-Hurd bias in general, but I don’t think we need to drag Spencer’s side hustle into this.
Why are people acting like camp does not hold any value at all? This team is stacked with one score in the mid high 13’s on bar, and the rest good high scores? Only people that should be mad, is Wong and Hurd at themselves for looking shaky this whole season. Hurd needs to actually become consistent instead of, coach, I’m all over the place, at camp, and in podium training, but I swear throw me in coach and I will do good at the final hour. This aint Russia, this aint a Mustafina, this is the USA… the next girl is ready. The whole I’m so shocked, I can’t believe it… Have you not seen Hurd at all ALL SEASON? Oh but last year she did this, etc. This will do nothing but be a good motivation for her!
Choosing teams based on all-around rank makes perfect sense, especially as teams get smaller and the all-around becomes ever more important. Every 2020 team Olympian will have to do all-around.
The National Team Coordinator doesn’t make the selection procedures for either men or women, though both are involved in the process. They also don’t pick the team’s alone, though their voices are probably the loudest in the room.
What doesn’t make sense is choosing a team based on ONE DAY’S all-around scores. Yes, more recent scores should get greater weight, but one day’s events are a bad way to judge overall performance. it’s also bonkers not to show day two of the “selection” process, then and call it a fair and open process.
Also take issue with keeping the women competing until the team walks out on the floor for the last spot, as it probably isn’t the best method for athlete safety or team morale, even if it makes sense in a cutthroat competitive way.
As dominant as the US women are, they could have taken all-arounders 7-12 and still likely won gold, so keeping at least 4 of the 6 on tenterhooks until the meet begins is completely unnecessary.
It’s worked all these quads. But yes lets throw away camp because you in fly over Idaho have a better system of counting what someone did in the past… Hey… lets go back to 1992 -96 era where that shit flew. fuck it, lets petition people right onto the teams, no competition needed because of what they can potentially do! gurl bye!
Why are you still here? Even without nicknames you are still the same trash commenter of always. Go away.
What are you talking about? The quads where the US did the worst were the ones where they used pure rank order at a single meet to determine teams.
I don’t really mind choosing the “fair” approach of top AA given how far ahead the US is but I do think there should be some weighting of scores throughout the season.
I have seen people say Leanne and Morgan should be mad about this but it doesn’t seem inconceivable that they also approve of the AA rankings selection method. Sometimes you just lose and it’s a bummer – I’m sure they both know that and will do their best to come back strong in 2020.
I think it’s ok this time, but imagine a situation where your top 4 at Olympic Selection Camp are all really strong vt/fx gymnasts with passable ub/bb. What then? Then you are costing the team up to 4 medals while bringing strong vts you won’t use.
Or well I guess you send ub/Bob specialists in the extra 2 spots. So maybe that would still work out ok. But you have the issue still that if your top 4 have similar strengths you can’t use all 4 on those events in tf.
The AA-ranking team is fine for the Olympics, which will be 4–4-3, but this is not the Olympics, and it is 5-4-3. There is an element of strategy allowed in team selection for this meet, and Tom is not exercising that strategy.
I love this team because they have a great shot for so many medals:
– Team gold (guaranteed)
– AA gold (Simone) and another medal (probably Sunisa)
– Vault and floor gold and another medal (Simone + whomever has the best meet between Jade and MyKayla)
– a bars medal for Sunisa (and maybe Simone)
– a beam medal for Kara (and maybe Simone or Sunisa)
Grace is a killer alternate because she’s equally good on every event.
Actually I think it makes sense to overload vault and floor, because those are the events on which the US is DOMINANT.
Bars and beam are more fall-prone, PLUS the judging is inconsistent this quad, AND there is international competition (China on beam, and the rest of the world on UB).
Apart from that, I’m happy for MyKayla and Jade, and devastated for Morgan and Leanne.
This sort of reasonable and logical comment is not allowed on the internet. We are always supposed to be outraged about everything . . .
Why is Skinner on FX? She finished 5th at Nationals and she finished 5th at Trials. If it’s by rank order, Skinner doesn’t do FX. Biles, Lee, Eaker, and Carey do.
Only tangentially related, but what’s the deal with Jade and Oregon State? I thought you had to show up within X months/years of signing your NLI? She signed hers in 2017….is she still doing NCAA at all?
So lemme get this straight, you all are mad because this team who will win Gold, isn’t the team you think could win Gold by the most, based on your opinion? Oh okay got. The privilege and faux outrage! log off!
Personally I’m in favor of this team but one problem is this: we don’t know whether Tom chose this team because he believed it was the best team, or whether he chose it because he was always going to choose top 6 because he thinks that’s the right thing to do. If the latter, that suggests a lack of strategy/ruthlessness that’s not a problem now but could be a HUGE problem in a post-Simone world.
The existence of Simone gives Tom a HUGE margin for error when it comes to team decisions. He won’t have that forever.
So why not wait to be outraged until we know the reasons for this team’s selection? People are making horrible comments about athletes based on conjecture.
I really wish there was a good legitimate journalism site that reported on gymnastics from an unbiased perspective. Gymcastic is still the best source but they have started to favor certain gymnasts and coaches over the years (I.e. Hurd and Kondos-Field).
Has anyone even thought that winning a bar medal, let alone a gold medal, is going to be extremely difficult since that is the most competitive event internationally. Maybe they have focused, and potentially rightfully that what they can gain by bringing in big numbers on the other three events and still having a reasonable bars team is the correct strategy. They still have some great bars potential withSuni and Simone but the international field on bars is very high. Do you think any of the gymnasts that were under consideration would have been able to beat Nina, the Downies (when they hit), the Russians, or the Chinese just to name a few of the stellar bars workers out there? Just a thought. It really is an embarrassment of riches that has them in this position when a lot of teams have a very small pool from which to chose their teams.
Exactly. Was Hurds bars score really the magical elixir of life that would someone bring magic and wonder to the USA team. Was it really that deep? No.
I think Nina will be the only one who would beat a clean Sunisa. Becky Downie is great but she was always getting by on having the highest difficulty, and her latest set is lower D and presumably lower E than Suni as well. Russia is not sending its top bar workers (Agafanova and Ilyankova) and instead just Spiridonova, who of course is still a big threat. The Chinese are fantastic as well but this team is more focused on beam, they chose not to bring Fan Yilin or Yin Sisi so their highest D-score on UB will be 6.0. I think if all the UB contenders hit, it will definitely be Nina 1st, Suni 2nd, and then Bronze could actually be a fight between Simone, Daria, Becky, and maybe Ellie Seitz.
OMG what is this choosing people based on AA rankings? I mean it’s not like 2020 is a 4 person team that needs only AA gymnasts! The nerve to use this methodology the YEAR before the Olympics! Is there a manager, or someone I can vent to at this silly usage of USAG team picken’ procedures? The nerve! The anger! The outrage! How dare there! Such a stupid approach !
No one is against using AA rankings, however, what is the point of doing Classics and Nationals, when all that matters is Trials (this year)?
If you really want to pick the team by AA rankings then US Classic and Nationals should factor in.
I am absolutely ready for your rant to be verbalized on Gymcastic, Spencer.
I’m not! The crying and snowflaking is going to be OTT! And we still dont know what happened day 2! All for the love of Hurd
When you realize Hurds fans are kind of gross!
Skinner’s vault is unquestionably worth more than Morgan’s bars. Skinner always gets underscored domestically. Internationally, all vaults receive the same E score so adding more difficult vaults is guaranteed to increase the team total.
It’s also quite odd to consider scores from a month and a half ago on par with yesterday’s. Skinner only had two months back in training as of nationals. Of course her scores were better.
I take your point Spencer. But, when Morgan made the team after a great selection camp and a not so great nationals, you did not complain then. Selection camp should matter. She’ll come back with something to prove next year, no problem.
You add scores where you can get them. If adding a third big vault unbalances the team but still adds 0.5-1.0 more than another bars gymnast would, do you go for balance or higher scoring potential? It’s weird but works. That said I’m here for this “non bars team” still putting up what will likely be the highest bars score in the world as a team. And then also maybe three Chengs, two Moors, and a triple double.
Fuck bars 2019 I love this team!!!
This is some wonky team construction that reminds me a lot of 2004, and in 2004 we saw how one injury to the “wrong” person on a lopsided team throws everything off. But unlike 2004, there’s zero chance anyone beats the US so I think this was the right call. It’s weird construction, but it was always going to be once McCusker was out. Hurd didn’t do the job this season and I’m fine with leaving her home.
Well, at least sanity prevailed and Jade made the team instead of being left out because of the horrible, insipid, illogical, absolutely nonsensical “she won’t be on the Olympic team, give the experience to someone else” discourse that someone people in these comments are *still* yapping about. Jade is the better VT/FX option for the team now, so she deserves to be on it now. Experience is an intangible quality that is not at all directly correlated to better results. Not even Tom Forster, who is not the brightest tool in the shed, wasted time with that reasoning. Just let it go.
Hopefully Jade will be on the Tokyo team anyway.
We get it! You love Jade Carey and her special needs floor routine. Got it! No more please!!
No, I just have more than two working brain cells, which you very clearly don’t considering all of your horrible commentary and usage of insensitive wording. I hope someone prays for you every night for the devil in your life (because I won’t do it lol).
Normally I don’t respond to internet trolls but I have to call this one out. You’re entitled to your opinions about Jade, but making fun of people with handicaps is about as low as it gets. Don’t be such a shit.
You okay sis? Can you finally go #2 now that you got all that emotional constipation out? Also, Hi Mr Carey, tell Jade we said congrats on her making the team!
I said I’d really like a team of Simone, Sunisa, Jade, Kara, and Grace but I was worried about the bars set- now I’m like GRACE IS THE BEST BAR WORKER EVERRRRRRR (compared to Skinner and Carey at least…). You NEED Grace to compete AA in qualification and possibly to do team final on bars and floor. She’s proven that international judges like her beam and floor and while props to Skinner for improving so much so fast, she will be demolished by execution on the international stage.
If they’re taking Skinner based on one performance where everyone else had the wackiest mistakes, then I can only assume they’ll do the same for the alternate as the competition approaches- some sort of other wacky AA competition at worlds practices where Grace will likely come out on top?
The selection committee is trying to be so “fair” and un-Marta-like that it’s completely unfair. This is yet another example of USAG being completely tone deaf.
also I realize that any team could win so we don’t NEED need Grace- these girls work so hard for so long that to take the best on one performance and not the body of work in recent meets is insulting to all the girls who worked so hard to get to this point. If we take the ‘anyone in the US will make a winning team” approach, then we should take Aleah, Faith, Emily, and Jordan- they all had great meets too.
Skinner has always done better internationally than domestically. She only needs to vault in team final and all vaults get the same E score.
If the other girls want a spot on Tokyo the only thing that matters is getting a higher difficulty vault.
Skinner runs a real risk of a 2 point deduction because of her vault technique.
I am totally into her comeback but those split positions are going to be in serious trouble with the international judges. She needs to get more outside the box with dance. Some tuck positions or something .
On the other hand, if your predecessor at work had the legacy of being abusive and negligent, you’d strive to be the opposite of them too. Tom has overcorrected from the Marta/Penny years but I totally understand his rationale for doing so.
Valid point. I just have a hard time seeing a team with no third bars worker…no fourth bars worker either. Taking AA standing from one day of camp shows they followed zero of the procedure they wrote- if they wanted to be as un-Marta as possible they’d follow their own procedure.
I think that Spencer is making far too many assumptions here with this analysis. We have no reason to believe that grace is the alternate and that AA standings are being used as the soul determinant for the team. Personally, I think only skinner or jade will make the final team. Grace has a much more usable score for all around on average with international judges as well as might be needed for bars in team final
Right. It was already stated alternate would be named after podium training. I don’t know why it was determined that McCallum is the alternate. For all we know, Eaker could fall all over the place on BB during podium and get named alternate. Likely Skinner is named alternate, but that will depend on performances. If McCallum is looking better than Eaker on UB and if she’s hitting FX. She is in.
Honestly, the more I think about this team the angrier I get. I really didn’t believe Forster could be so myopic.
1. Was this really rank order selection, or is it just a coincidence? Forster must clarify.
2. Furthermore, if it WAS selection by rank order, based on one day of competition, were the gymnasts aware beforehand? Why wasn’t this made public?
3. I think you can justify the inclusion of everyone on this team except Grace McCallum. With Skinner, at least, you get another big vault for TF, but Grace – much as I love her – where does she contribute?
4. Morgan pretty clearly got Konnor McClain’ed. Despite stumbles on some other events, her bars have been consistently top three in the US this year – I literally can’t remember ever seeing her come off before yesterday. She’s worked insanely hard, going to meet after meet, and her bars have ALWAYS been solid. You drop an obviously needed score because she had ONE bad day? The hell? This must be so disheartening for her.
5. But Morgan fell on UB at camp when it counted, you say. OK, fine – harsh, but not wholly unfair. For the love of God, though, take Leanne Wong, one of only a blessed few who HIT bars yesterday, has done so consistently this year (her silver medal at PanAms, anyone?), and can provide a respectable score!
It destroys me that just one injury could force this team to count a UB routine from Skinner, Carey or McCallum in TF, when the US has multiple options for a reliable 14+ score left at home. This country is blessed with so much depth – why artificially lower your team score? Why inflict this on yourself?
I hope Morgan comes back next year and absolutely KILLS it at the Olympic trials.
McCallum is looking at a 5.9-6.3 UB D-score depending on what she connects and if she includes the Downie or not…she scored 14.1 at Worlds last year with a 5.6 routine so I think she can absolutely do UB in TF, even if she isn’t as obvious a choice as Hurd or Wong.
I hope you’re right! I still think it’s kind of a waste not to bring one of the two gymnasts who generally score higher on bars, at least as an alternate, but if Grace has a strong UB routine by competition time then perhaps she can go in TF, and Skinner is the alternate.
@AEC: I agree. If they had taken Wong, they would have included every single top-3 score from the first day of selection as Wong was 2nd on UB. But if Grace hit her full 6.3 D routine this morning (we know from twitter that she did well on UB but not what that means specifically) she could have displaced Wong off the team, especially because Grace did place in the top 6 AA which Tom loves so much.
Agree completely. The problem with straight all-around at one meet is that it creates an atmosphere where gymnasts aren’t able to make mistakes. There is no consideration of total contribution, preparedness and ability. And this undermines a gymnasts trust and confidence. A gymnast is only as good as her last routine.
One fall and your out. Morgan has hit bars she would have made Worlds. Straight all-around at one meet. Nevermind that she hasn’t fallen on bars in a year. And a gymnast shouldn’t make it SOLEY because they hit at one meet. That’s why the averaging over a series of meets is important.
If Skinner is on the team with McCallum the alternate, they have a serious issue about qualification lineups to sort out. This is what is locked in for Qualification:
VT: Simone, Suni, Jade, ???
UB: Simone, Suni, ???, ???
BB: Simone, Suni, Kara, ???
FX: Simone, Suni, Jade, ???
Now, they can either give Eaker a chance for AA or give Skinner a chance for VT final. If they give Eaker the chance for AA, then Skinner just competes Bars/Beam in prelims-WHAT? And then this is what happens in TF:
VT: Simone, Jade, ???
UB: Simone, Suni, Kara
BB: Simone, Suni, Kara
FX: Simone, ???, ???
They could put Skinner up on VT and FX in final even though she would do UB/BB in quals, or they could put up Suni on vault, or Suni and Kara on floor. Either way Skinner is locked out of her good events in TQ and ony does maybe VT in TF like Maggie Nichols 2015.
Or, if they give Skinner VT in quals, then either she or Jade will do AA, even though Eaker beat both of them at camp in AA by a point…the whole situation is too complicated.
With Grace on the team and Skinner the alternate, on the other hand, it becomes much simpler in quals:
VT: Simone, Suni, Jade, ???
UB: Simone, Suni, Kara, Grace
BB: Simone, Suni, Kara, Grace
FX: Simone, Suni, Jade, ???
I again lead toward Grace for AA here and Kara UB/BB so for TF:
VT: Simone, Jade, Grace
UB: Simone, Suni, Grace
BB: Simone, Suni, Kara
FX: Simone, Jade, Suni
This way you don’t have Grace doing VT in TF without doing it in TQ. But if Eaker really shows up in training, they could always have Suni VT in TF.
Nichols did all but UB in 2015 TQ and then did all 4 events in TF.
Skinner would only do VT in TF if she makes the team. Would do UB and BB in TQ also.
Agree, McCallum makes the most sense with the make up of the team in terms of line ups. I could see her doing UB/BB in TQ so Eaker can stab at AA. Then do VT in TF.
But, if they are both hitting, McCallum is actually the stronger AAer between her and Eaker.